

Computer underground Digest    Sun May 31, 1992   Volume 4 : Issue 24

       Editors: Jim Thomas and Gordon Meyer (TK0JUT2@NIU.BITNET)
       Associate Editor: Etaion Shrdlu, Jr.
       Arcmeisters: Brendan Kehoe and Bob Kusumoto

CONTENTS, #4.24 (May 31, 1992)
File 1-- Spring 2600
File 2-- Correction on "Cybermyth" Article
File 3--Info from French CCC--One Year After
File 4-- GEnie Transcript: Steve Cisler/"Data Highways"

Issues of CuD can be found in the Usenet alt.society.cu-digest news
group, on CompuServe in DL0 and DL4 of the IBMBBS SIG, DL1 of LAWSIG,
and DL0 and DL12 of TELECOM, on Genie in the PF*NPC RT libraries, on
the PC-EXEC BBS at (414) 789-4210, and by anonymous ftp from
ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu, and
ftp.ee.mu.oz.au.  To use the U. of Chicago email server, send mail
with the subject "help" (without the quotes) to
archive-server@chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu.  European distributor: ComNet
in Luxembourg BBS (++352) 466893.

COMPUTER UNDERGROUND DIGEST is an open forum dedicated to sharing
information among computerists and to the presentation and debate of
diverse views.  CuD material may  be reprinted as long as the source
is cited.  Some authors do copyright their material, and they should
be contacted for reprint permission.  It is assumed that non-personal
mail to the moderators may be reprinted unless otherwise specified.
Readers are encouraged to submit reasoned articles relating to
computer culture and communication.  Articles are preferred to short
responses.  Please avoid quoting previous posts unless absolutely
necessary.

DISCLAIMER: The views represented herein do not necessarily represent
            the views of the moderators. Digest contributors assume all
            responsibility for ensuring that articles submitted do not
            violate copyright protections.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Moderators <tk0jut2@mvs.cso.niu.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 May 1992 12:22:41 CDT
Subject: File 1--Spring 2600

The Spring '92 issue of "2600: The Hacker Quarterly" is out, and it's
another fine issue. Articles include MS DOS viruses and inadequate
virus scanners, boxes and cruising through Unix, and security
information on WWIV BBS software.  There's the usual technical
information and letters, and an overview of the Australian phone
system. And more. The review of the month is the Steve Jackson game
HACKER: THE COMPUTER CRIME CARD GAME (it gets a highly positive
review).

2600 is a excellent value for $21 (U.S./Canada). More information can
be obtained directly from the editor, Emmanuel Goldstein, at
2600@well.sf.ca.us, or:
  2600
  PO Box 752
  Middle Island, NY 11953-0752

------------------------------

From: Gene Spafford <spaf@CS.PURDUE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1992 11:52:28 EDT
Subject: File 2--Correction on "Cybermyth" Article

Gene Spafford reminds us that he was the original author of the
article in Cu Digest 4.23 on the "myth of the dying child."
Attribution to Spaf as the author was inadvertently left out as it
made the rounds from its original posting to news.announce.important
last year.  Further, in formatting the article, the initials of the
contributor of the article to CuD made it appear that the poster
signed the original moderator comment by Mark Horton.  We attribute
the inadvertent omissions to the quirks of recursive circulation of
messages, and are certain that those whose hands the message passed
through intended no slight to the original author.  Spaf indicates
that the message is as he wrote it with the exception of some minor
formatting changes, the bibliography, and the omission of a paragraph
with UNICEF and Red Cross addresses.

For those who missed it, the article was about the cybermyth of Craig
Shergold, a "dying child," that circulated the nets.  Like other
cybermyths ("chocolate chip cookie recipe" and "FCC modem tax"), the
post took on a life of its own and still occasionally can be seen.  We
are waiting for an ambitious reader to compile a list of similar
cybermyths that have been net-spread periodically.  But, do it before
Sun Devil II hits.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 92 08:52 GMT
From: Jean-Bernard Condat <0005013469@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: File 3--Info from French CCC--One Year After

DON'T HESITATE TO FOLLOW TO OTHER BULLETIN BOARDS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

                       June 6th, 1991  6:24 pm

The French Police Judiciaire inculped of computer fraud (]462.2 of  the
French legislation) Jean-Bernard Condat, general secretary of the Chaos
Computer Club France (cccf).

The police said that like an hackers club (72 members in France)    and
1,800 correspondents throughout the world) cannot be legal and found  a
crazy story of NUI (the well known BND2 code used from two years by all
the people via Minitel, the French terminal) and inculped  Jean-Bernard
for paying US$1,000 pro month... "ad vita aeternam"!

The anniversary of this day, the CCCF make a great fest with a lot   of
articles on computer hacking, etc. Don't hesitate to collaborate and/or
send a message in this e-mail box for Jean-Bernard.

Thank for your help. Don't hesitate to put this e-mail address on  your
mailing list... and to ask us for all your French questions.

(bureau of) Jean-Bernard Condat
Chaos Computer Club France (CCCF)
B.P. 8005
69351 Lyon Cedex 08, France
Tel.: +33 1 47 87 40 83
Fax.: +33 1 47 87 70 70.

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 92 19:04:48 EDT
From: Gordon Meyer <72307.1502@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: File 4--GEnie Transcript: Steve Cisler/"Data Highways"

  ______________________________________________________
 |                                                      |
 |  The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable  |______
 |______________________________________________________|      |
   |  Sysops' GE Mail: PF$    RTC Sunday 9pm EDT:  MOVE 545;2  |______
   |___________________________________________________________|      |
     |  News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits |
     |________________________________________________________________|


   __________________________________________________________________
  |  Rights & responsibilities, government, politics, minority civil |_
  |    rights, volunteerism, nonprofit management, the media, the    | |
  |  environment, international issues, gay/lesbian/bisexual issues, | |
  |       women & men, parenting, youth organizations and more!      | |
  |__________________________________________________________________| |
    |__________________________________________________________________|

       ________             PF$  PF*NPC Sysops      _____________
      |        |_                                  | Weekly RTC: |_
      | The    | |      SHERMAN  Tom Sherman       | 9pm Eastern | |
      | PF*NPC | |        SCOTT  Scott Reed        | on Sundays! | |
      | Staff: | |     CHERNOFF  Paul Chernoff     | Type M545;2 | |
      |________| |     GRAFFITI  Ric Helton        |_____________| |
        |________|       SHERRY  Sherry              |_____________|

This is a transcript of the RealTime Conference with Apple's Steve
Cisler, a note librarian and data access pioneer, discussing access to
the "data highways" and computer systems that will increasingly shape
the world around us.

An electronic meeting place for friends, family and national "town
meetings," GEnie is an international online computer network for
information, education and entertainment. For under $5.00/month, GEnie
offers over 50 special interest bulletin boards and unlimited electronic
mail at no extra charge during evenings, weekends and holidays. GEnie is
offered by GE Information Services, a division of General Electric Company.

In the Public Forum*NonProfit Connection, thousands of people every day
discuss politics and a wide range of social and nonprofit issues.  A neutral
arena for all points of view, the PF*NPC is presented by Public Interest
Media, a nonprofit organization devoted to empowering people through the
socially productive use of information and communication technology.
For more information about GEnie or the Public Forum, call 1-800-638-9636
or send electronic mail to tsherman@igc.org.

Future real-time conferences, all beginning at 9 p.m. ET, include:

  Katie Hafner, author of Cyberpunk                  (May 24)
  Jerry Berman, Esq., Electronic Frontier Foundation (May 31)

 To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX)
 800-638-8369.  Upon connection, type HHH.  At the U#= prompt,
 type XTX88367,GENIE <RETURN>.  The system will prompt you for information.

     Copyright (c)1992 Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RT and GEnie(R)
    May be redistributed as long as it is unedited and this notice appears.

        __________________________________________________________
    -=((    The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable    ))=-
  -==(((           GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC            )))==-
    -=((__________________________________________________________))=-



<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Let me say a few quick words of introduction . . .

                         Welcome to the second in this month's series of
                         RTCs on Technology and Society! Please check
                         the schedule, posted in our Announcements topic
                         (cat 1/topic 3) for the other events . . .
                         These realtime conferences raise important
                         issues for the future -- some of them already
                         being discussed in BB Cat 7: Technology,
                         Science and Society . You'll also find many
                         excellent files in the Public Forum library. .

                         Because we have a small, well-mannered group
                         tonight <grin> . . . I'm going to leave the
                         room open for everyone to talk, BUT .... it'll
                         be a lot easier if you /RAIse your hand to be
                         called on so that STeve only has to answer one
                         question at a time . . .

                         Now the PF*NPC is delighted to introduce Steve
                         Cisler from Apple Computer. A former librarian,
                         Steve is now internationally known for his
                         involvement in . . . .issues involving public
                         access to information and the networks that
                         carry it. Here's Steve! GA

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          The room is open now . . . Steve will you say
                         hello -- and anything else you want to say? GA

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I still consider myself a librarian, but I have
                         been working a lot with national networking
                         issues ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Steve, today's NY Times has a review of Neil
                         Postman's latest book . . . in which he claims
                         that technology has sapped us of our initiative
                         and control . . . and I wonder if you see
                         evidence of that happening in the world of
                         online information. GA

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Yes, I read it. I think he chooses not to
                         understand some of the positive aspects of
                         technology, esp. interactive computing. ...

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I know that people have tried to show him the
                         benefits of computer discussions. In fact, he
                         was sent a discussion of his AMUSING OURSELVES
                         TO DEATH (about TV) but he never responded. Re:
                         lost of initiative and control. I think that
                         loss of control over personal information as
                         well as information generated by the govt seems
                         out of our control ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Scott, your question?

<SCOTT>                  Can you address the problems of making
                         telecommunications more accessible to people?
                         ga

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think the interfaces, the modem setup or even
                         elimination of such equipment will be important
                         to attract a whole new class of users on to
                         these and other systems. The barriers
                         (including typing ability) are still great...
                         Also, there is the problem of cost. Some places
                         are providing public access to online services.
                         Santa Monica City has public access PC's in
                         libraries and public places. These have been
                         used by non-computer... owners including the
                         homeless who used them to negotiate with the
                         city council for some services. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Ric, your question?

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         How much does the hardware infrastructure have
                         to do with how many people will utilize public
                         data networks? Will we need desktop ISDN before
                         it becomes widescale, or is it starting to
                         becoming pervasive even now? GA

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Obviously, people are getting a lot of use out
                         of 2400 bps systems, so the speed is not all
                         that important. I do believe that new sorts of
                         services will emerge from commercial providers
                         and from amateurs when we get something like
                         ISDN ... [garbled] ... If these short answers
                         don't suffice, I'll try and answer in more
                         detail by mail ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Marty, your question?

<[MARTY] MKB>            Steve, you cite cost. Why shouldn't consumers
                         of information services pay the true cost of
                         the information? Libraries have been energetic
                         in seeking subsidized information. At some
                         point, we taxpayers have to stop subsidizing
                         everything.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Part of my posting was clipped. sorry

                         Many people believe that our country was based
                         on access to information. It has been a big
                         part of the democratic tradition. I do think
                         there are many arguments about just how much
                         should be subsidized...

<[MARTY] MKB>            This country is based on access to information.
                         But I don't remember the constitutional
                         arguments about who was supposed to pay for it.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> In the 80's and 90's there seems to be far less
                         support for what I would call an information
                         commons, be it electronic or print, Systems
                         such ... as the FreeNets in Cleveland, Peoria,
                         Youngstown and online libraries such as Melvyl
                         (Un. of California) are open to all callers and
                         Internet users. They have turned nobody away
                         except when all the ports are full. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Marty, follow up question?

<[MARTY] MKB>            I think what's important is the access to
                         information. That issue is being addressed by
                         the EFF.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          My turn! . . . Is there any way to set a price
                         for information? Should its cost be determined
                         by what the market will pay? And is it
                         technologically possible these days to control
                         the distribution of information?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think that EFF is promoting access to the
                         network by providing info about tools, the Net,
                         and the policies. Now to Tom's question...

                         I don't think that all information should be
                         driven by market considerations. For instance
                         the Smithsonian sells GIF files on CompuServe
                         and America Online but will be giving the same
                         ones away on the Internet. In fact, they will
                         be better quality!... Controlling dist. of
                         info: CD-ROM publishers can time date software
                         to stop working after a certain time. Network
                         providers are looking at models for metering
                         smaller and smaller chunks of info, and I think
                         encryption will be very very big in a couple of
                         years ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Marty (or others), care to comment?

<[MARTY] MKB>            We're sitting here on an information utility,
                         all enjoying access to a cornucopia of
                         information, and we've priced it very
                         effectively. And it's growing! We're getting
                         the tools.

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         I think the major focus on 'information' in our
                         culture has been on how much money we can make
                         from it, and not an any democratic process.
                         Copyright law itself is based on protecting
                         commercial interests.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Well, copyright was originally intended to
                         foster the spread of information by assuring
                         that the creator would get some remuneration.
                         That has been forgotten to some extent. ga

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         How long will it be before we see other city,
                         county, state or even the federal government
                         online and accessible to the public at large?
                         Access to current laws, referendums, email to
                         elected officials, that sort of thing. GA

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> It's happening in different areas. Apple
                         Library of Tomorrow has provided equipment
                         grants to Access Colorado. The state wants to
                         hook up all the libraries in Colorado... so
                         that each citizen can reach them with a local
                         call. Now, other agencies want to provide some
                         of their databases and information for public
                         access via this network (which will be on the
                         Internet this year)... One problem is that some
                         states want to re-sell the information and
                         programs to access that info. It seems like a
                         natural course to take for some MIS folks at
                         state and local level... but it can make access
                         to that info very expensive, if not totally out
                         of reach to many. Given the touch budgets they
                         are working with, there are no easy solutions.
                         ga

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         So UNIX is turning out to be a popular harward
                         choice? GA

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Someone once said, "In Unix, no one can hear
                         you scream." But yes, it is getting popular. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Randy, your question?

<[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4>     Do you think the accessibility of information
                         will contribute to widening the gap between
                         gov't and 'the people' as gov't will continue
                         to take a more 'well, that information is
                         available, why didn't you read it'. done

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Well, the inaccessibility should widen the gap.
                         Also, many legislators fear the day when they
                         start getting email. Heck, they are not listing
                         their fax machines in some parts of Congress. I
                         think all of us are... having a hard time
                         dealing with the information fire-hose. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Randy, follow up question?

<[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4>     ..and what about we as people. It seems one day
                         that a person will be able to live a whole life
                         from the desktop because

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> As I said, I'll take email and try to answer,
                         or else in the conferences. ga

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         (Ever watched British Parliament in session? A
                         member stands, and says "Question #34." The
                         speaker stands and answers, "Answer #125." And
                         on, and on.... I am picturing that. :)

<[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4>     the very need to developer 'ties' to other
                         people by simply going out and talking to them
                         will be eliminated. in other words, can
                         information access cause alienation fo a whole
                         society?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> the last question was garbled. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Randy commented that someday a person may be
                         able to live a whole life from a desktop
                         because the very need to develop ties to other
                         people will be eliminated (by online
                         connections)

<[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4>     as Tom said.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think the technologies are going to be more
                         seductive. People may scorn human contact, if
                         the computer is more satisfying, or if the
                         other users are more in tune with them...

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         That's a fatalistic view, isn't it? Couldn't
                         technology actually augment our interpersonal
                         connections, allowing us to meet (both
                         electronically AND in person, people we'd never
                         have had the opportunity to know otherwise?

<SCOTT>                  Could you say more about the near-term
                         technological advances that will make computer
                         telecom more accessible? (Please tell us what
                         ISDN is about.) How about the long-term? GA

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> ISDN provide two 64 kilobit/sec channels and 1
                         16 kb/sec. With video compression you will see
                         video conferencing possible. The phone
                         companies are looking at a technology called
                         ADSL... which gives you about 1.5 megabits/sec
                         outbound with a return speed of perhaps 64
                         kb/sec. That is fast enough for full motion
                         video of laserdisc quality. The big plus for
                         the telcos is that they won't have to rewire
                         with fiber. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Marty, your question/comment?

<[MARTY] MKB>            Steve, you're right that all of us are
                         challenged by the need to cope with the
                         information cornucopia. Electronic newspapers
                         edited according to the reader's personal
                         criteria will be powerful in giving us a high
                         information density. Do you see them comDo you
                         see them coming? <ga>

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Ric I fully agree that remote connections to
                         people encourages face to face meetings. It has
                         for me (that's how I've met Tom Sherman and
                         many other people.

                         About electronic newspapers... We were working
                         on a research project called Rosebud where you
                         could put in a series of personal questions for
                         the software to take and ask many different
                         databases... In the night the answers would
                         arrive, and a newspaper would be built and
                         would be sitting on your desktop in the morning
                         (or whenever). That's about all I can say
                         now... but I'm sure it's a model many other
                         companies are working on. Already there are
                         many electronic clipping services: News Edge,
                         Individual Inc are 2 that come to mind. Not
                         cheap though! ga

<[MARTY] MKB>            Rosebud sounds interesting. I'm thinking more
                         of an online feed from, say, AP; each story
                         would have a specific subject tag, and the
                         computer would pick out the stories the reader
                         wanted, at varying levels of detail.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Marty, follow up? Like that cable news
                         arrangement?

<[MARTY] MKB>            Something like it. I picture the reader
                         spending half a day or so programming the thing
                         by subject and level of depth, from basic to
                         professional.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Are you familiar with X*Press Info. Services?
                         It's a service of TCI and is sold through local
                         cable companies. DOS and Mac software can grab
                         stories by keywords, broad subject areas
                         (Japan, Red Sox, serial killers) and save those
                         for you...

<[MARTY] MKB>            No, is it what I'm describing? More to the
                         point, is it priced where an average middle
                         income information professional might want it?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Marty, there is a system called TOPIC from
                         Verity. You do spend a couple of hours
                         programming the personal profile, assigning
                         'weights' to diff. terms so your articles are
                         graded by relevance. That is really ...
                         attracting a lot of attention in some circles.
                         Librarians are skeptical of this sort of
                         system. For the individual user, I'm not sure
                         what to recommend. I think it's a bit too new
                         and costly for an information broker working at
                         home to use, but a system like GEnie might make
                         money providing Certainly print pubs are
                         targeting readers more and more narrowly. My
                         newsweek has ads for stores three miles away!
                         ga

<[MARTY] MKB>            Now that's it. Is it priced in the ballpark for
                         the private individual rather than the office?
                         To a certain extent, of course, we already have
                         that with specialized newsletters. We read
                         MacWeek, we get specialized info.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Marty, the last phone # I have for X*PRESS is
                         Linda Nicholson, 303-721-5130. Steve may have
                         newer numbers.

<[MARTY] MKB>            Thanks, I'll check it out.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Ric, you had a question?

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         Do you think that allowing users to read
                         "personalized" newspapers contributes somehow
                         to censorship... after all, you'd never read
                         anything you didn't WANT to read about, so you
                         would stagnate. Injustices would go
                         uncorrected.... activism would become
                         worthless: you'd be preaching to the choir,
                         people who WANTED to read your message. GA

                         (Oh, X-Press can be reached at 1-800-7PC-NEWS)

<[MARTY] MKB>            Ric, a person has the right to receive only the
                         information he wants to receive!

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think that personal newspapers should have a
                         serendipity factor built in so you get fresh
                         info. Nicholas Negroponte of the Media Lab said
                         that was important. ga

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         I'm not talking 'rights' but the sociological
                         effects.

<[MARTY] MKB>            The reader can SET a serendipity factor if he
                         wants it. I would. But freedom of speech has
                         never included the ability to make someone
                         listen.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I and other librarians kind of surf the
                         information waves in a general sort of way, and
                         our users find that very useful. So there is
                         value is staying abreast of all sorts of info,
                         not just narrow subjects. ga marty, I could not
                         read yours. ga

<[MARTY] MKB>            I agree it's good to have a serendipity factor,
                         but the individual should decide that for
                         himself.

<SCOTT>                  I could imagine that folks might subscribe to a
                         service which acted like the ditor of a
                         newspaper in deciding for them what current
                         events were worth finding out about.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Steve, what are your thoughts about the federal
                         government's current understanding of public
                         access to info and its control over that access

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> To change the subject, if any Mac owners want a
                         couple of disks with lots of info on the
                         Internet including guide books, then send... a
                         self addressed label to Internet Stuff, Apple
                         Library, 10381 Bandley Dr. MS8C Cupertino, CA
                         95014. Next: Tom's Question...

<[MARTY] MKB>            Steve, can you put them in the online service
                         libraries?

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Or can we post 'em for you?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> The feds have different views about access to
                         info. The drive to privatize it has diminished
                         since Bush took over, but there is also an
                         argument about what constitutes govt. info...
                         Some agencies think only printed stuff should
                         be disseminated, but many Congresspeople
                         disagreed. There are some people in the Office
                         of Management and Budget who will agree... but
                         they have to listen to the Information
                         Information Society on one hand and the
                         librarians and other who advocate unrestricted
                         access on the other... Another interesting
                         controversy: is any electronic message a govt.
                         record? Should you be able to get it with a
                         Freedom of Info. Act request? I believe in
                         access to most govt. info, but I know I'd...
                         feel hampered if all my email became an
                         official record. I like it to remain
                         conversation, and I think govt. employees
                         should have the right to electronic
                         conversation. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Now there's a can of electronic worms! Scott,
                         your question?

<SCOTT>                  I find it a lot easier to comprehend and retain
                         info I've read in hardcopy. Can you suggest
                         reasons why reading info on the screen is more
                         difficult? GA

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> The resolution is much lower than a cheap
                         paperback, but that is going to change. I have
                         been reading Voyager's Expanded Books on our
                         Mac portable. Jurrasic Park by M. Crichton was
                         a good read on screen, but it will get much
                         better. ...

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         (I think the screen orientation -- standing up
                         or laying down -- is important, too)

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Still, books will be around quite a while as
                         these technologies develop. I may be able to
                         use the device in the bathroom but not in the
                         tub or the pool. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Scott, follow up?

<SCOTT>                  This has something to do with being able to
                         hold the page in my hand and knowing it will be
                         there when I go back to look again.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Well, when I reviewed the Crichton book on the
                         PowerBook, I read it on the plane flying from
                         San Jose to Austin and then the bus to

<SCOTT>                  Why is that? ga

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> San Antonio and finally in bed, with my head on
                         the pillow and the PowerBook on its side. I
                         drifted off to sleep, as did my machine. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Steve, we've more questions! Can you stay
                         another 10 minutes or so?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Sure, as long as you want. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          GREAT! Marty, your question?

<[MARTY] MKB>            A record is a record if it's an official
                         document, signed by a competent authority.
                         E-mail is not a record, it's a communication.
                         There will always be a zone of privacy for
                         government officials to exchange frank
                         comments, and they will find it one way one
                         way or another. Agree? <ga>

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> In some local governments, all meetings have to
                         be open. School boards and city councils are
                         one example. Dave Hughes of Colorado Springs
                         discussed this aspect (lack of privacy) some
                         time ago.... I agree that email is a
                         communication, but memos can be requested by
                         citizens who want to find out how business was
                         carried out on some rezoning controversy. ga

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> A. Duda is a librarian, if I remember. Welcome.

<A.DUDA>                 Thanks. Sorry to be so late.

<[MARTY] MKB>            Right Steve, a memo is a record. But e-mails
                         are a communication.

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         email = memo?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I know that corporate lawyers caution people
                         about what they put into the email system. It
                         might show up in a court case later because it
                         is 'discoverable' (is that the term?) ga

<[MARTY] MKB>            Right again. E-mails are discoverable, but they
                         shouldn't be considered fair game as policy
                         input.

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          My turn :-) . . . Steve, would you say
                         something about the management of NREN and who
                         will profit (as well as benefit) from it?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Historians are worried about the use of
                         electronic comms because they cut out a lot of
                         informal records. Big gaps in how policy or
                         history is made.

                         On to Tom's Question... Many people are
                         concerned about the lack of governance in the
                         present Internet. Some LOVE the anarchy and see
                         strength in that. However, there is nobody you
                         can call when... you can't connect up to that
                         computer in Israel or Ann Arbor, and for
                         commercial firms to use the Internet, they want
                         accountability... I think there are several
                         circles of beneficiaries: 1. the research and
                         education community plus the national lab.
                         personnel 2. then the smaller colleges, K-12
                         schools, and some libraries... After that you
                         have small businesses, non-profits. museums and
                         some non-affiliated users who are sophisticated
                         about information access. The final group is
                         the biggest: ... the consumer who uses
                         electronics and computers but has not gone
                         online yet. Left out are lots of people who
                         don't have a need for this sort of info or who
                         choose to get it in other ways. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Steve, how soon will the general consumer have
                         access to the highspeed data highways?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> In some areas (Boston, DC, San Francisco Bay
                         Area) people can get accounts and begin using
                         the databases, discussion groups, and other
                         services right now. Netcom in San Jose offers a
                         flat rate connection for about $16/month plus a
                         lot of disk storage. Colorado Supernet has a
                         $2/hr. connect charge. Other places are much
                         much higher. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Steve, will NREN have the same access as
                         Internet? Andrea, you'll be next.

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> NREN is the broadband expansion of the American
                         part of the Internet, and it will probably have
                         a broader user base, just because so many
                         people are clamoring for connections (the
                         groups I mentioned before) ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Andrea, your question?

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        There's been some talk about "virtual"
                         libraries. What do you think we have to look
                         forward to?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> George Brett in North Carolina is designing a
                         text-based one, using MUDD software (multi-user
                         dungeons and dragons). You will be able to
                         enter... the library, examine objects, execute
                         code which will drop you into a 'real' database
                         or perhaps electronic object (text for now,
                         images and sounds later). That will be a start,
                         and then you'll have... much more media-rich
                         services. If these are successful, you'll
                         probably have 3D realistic browsing of
                         libraries and media objects. There will have to
                         be a good business model though. ga

<[Andrea] A.DUDA>        Will there be a role for virtual librarians?

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think there will be a role for people and for
                         software agents that may seem like people to
                         users on the other end of the system... I think
                         librarians will have a big challenge to keep up
                         with the technology, redefine their roles, and
                         continue to provide more traditional services
                         for people who are not fond of computers. ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          I want to remind you all that Katie Hafner will
                         be here May 24 and Jerry Berman May 30 . . .

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Hafner is working on a new book. I hope she
                         tells you about it! ga

<[Tom] SHERMAN>          Next Sunday, we're doing a joint RTC with the
                         SPACE RT talking about government spending for
                         protection from asteroids!!

<SHERRY>                 Frank, why don't you go ahead and say just a
                         bit about the RTC next week.

<FRANK.REDDY>            There's a move a foot in the planetary science
                         community .. . to spend some modest bucks to
                         locate small -- meaning yards across -- debris
                         that crosses Earth's orbit. Sounds small, but
                         such impacts could wipe out a city!

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I'm going to sign off tonight. Thanks for
                         inviting me. I enjoyed it. The time certainly
                         flew by. -Steve

<[Ric] GRAFFITI>         Thanks for coming, Steve!

<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> ** has left.



    -----# Participants #-----


<[Andrea] A.DUDA>
<[rookie] B.COOKE5>
<FRANK.REDDY>
<[Ric] GRAFFITI>
<[jim&pat] J.ENG9>
<[MARTY] MKB>
<[Mark] MLEWIS>
<[Steve Cisler] PRESS20>
<[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4>
<SCOTT>
<[Tom] SHERMAN>
<SHERRY>


 |
 | This listing was generated by LRTC Version 1.00
 | (C)opyright by Hartmut W. Malzahn, 1991. All rights reserved.
 |


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End of Computer Underground Digest #4.24
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