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 -=( Natural Selection Issue #1 ------------------- Interview : Mark Ludwig )=-
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 -=( 0 : Contents --------------------------------------------------------- )=-

 1 : Background
 2 : Questions and Answers

 -=( 1 : Background ------------------------------------------------------- )=-

 Mark Ludwig first came to our attention as author of the "Little Black Book of
 Computer  Viruses"  published  in  the early  90's,  which  caused  a stir  by
 containing details about how to  construct computer viruses and included  live
 source code.  All in the name of education and protection, of course.

 Since then he has written many books, most recently "The Little Black Book  of
 Email Viruses", and took  some time out from  his busy schedule to  answer our
 questions.

 (For reasons unknown, the picture at the URL mentioned in Mark's interview has
 disappeared at the time of publication, however it should be back soon).

 -=( 2 : Questions and Answers -------------------------------------------- )=-

 Q. Remind us how human you are.  What do you do in a normal day?  Where do you
    go for vacation?  What do  you do for fun?

 A. My wife and  I live on  a farm in  Belize in Central  America with our five
    boys (ages 1, 4, 8,  10 & 12). So  we  have animals and crops to  take care
    of, and we  homeschool our children.  There is no  telephone or electricity
    here, so  we run  off the  generator and  go into  town to  connect to  the
    internet.  Gasoline  just hit  $7/gallon here,  so I  am experimenting with
    making fuel ethanol, and in the spring we're planning to  build a  geodesic
    dome for our   future home. You  can see  a  picture of  us  if you  go  to
    www.ameaglepubs.com/author.html  and  click on  me. In  the past few years,
    we've gone  to the  beach, or to the states to visit family for vacations.


 Q. To get a background on your  usage of computers, which programs do you  use
    daily?  Have  you ever   been hit  by a   computer virus?   If so,   please
    describe the experience.

 A. I have several computers, and usually use three in any given day. I have  a
    Win ME machine with  business kind of stuff  on it - things  to do writing,
    accounting, scanning, video production, etc.  To write I use either  an old
    DOS word processor that was freeware  and came with the source (which  I am
    writing this on right now), or Quark Express. Then I have a notebook that I
    use  for internet  stuff, and  another Linux  machine. For  programming pc
    stuff, I use TASM  or MASM, an old  version of Turbo Pascal,  C++, VBScript
    and Perl  (depending on  the application).  Lately it  seems like I've been
    doing more and more web-based stuff.

    Of course I've been hit by viruses. They've ranged from instantaneous total
    destruction of  everything on  the hard  disk to  just a  "humph, something
    funny's going on here"  which showed up a  virus when it was  tracked down.
    However,  as  someone  interested  in  viruses,  the  experience  is  quite
    different from someone who  just hates them and  wants to avoid them.  It's
    kind of like if you're out in  the forest hunting bear, and the bears  show
    up in your camp one night. You'd be happy to see them of course, which most
    campers would not.  Even if they  knock down a  tent or something,  it's an
    entertaining experience.


 Q. Why  are  users so  susceptible  to "obviously  suspicious"  attachments in
    emails about Money, Love, and  Anna Kournakova?  Are they too  curious, too
    fearless, too busy to notice, or just undereducated about the  consequences
    of their actions?

 A. Well, human beings often act  in irrational ways, especially when  it comes
    to things that excite their passions, like money, sex, etc. Really, a  good
    virus which requires  the user to  take some kind  of action (like  open an
    email)  has  to  do a  marketing  job  just like  somebody  trying  to sell
    something. I discuss  this in detail  in my book  The Little Black  Book of
    Email Viruses. But, hey, why do people buy pet rocks?


 Q. As one of the few authors to publish live virus code and technology, why is
    it that more people haven't followed  your lead?  Do you ever regret  being
    labelled a "lone ranger"?

 A. Well, most people are also man pleasers. They get a few people saying  that
    what they're doing is "not nice"  and chicken out, so it's not  surprising.

    Honestly, I'm sorry more people haven't followed my lead. I think the world
    would be a better place if they did. As far as being a "lone ranger", well,
    I am. How any gringo sitting out in the jungle in Central America could say
    he's not is beyond me. What I  regret is the fact that a "lone  ranger" now
    has a  negative image  in the  civilized world.  I mean,  it was the Daniel
    Boones and Davy Crockets who were  the great men to generations past.  They
    were trailblazers. Remember, the  Lone Ranger was a  hero! So why, now,  is
    being a "lone ranger" something negative,  an epithet? No, I don't want  to
    run with the  herd like a  bunch of lemmings,  and I don't  need a bunch of
    lemmings telling me I'm okay to feel good about myself.


 Q. Are you invited as a speaker to any security or virus conferences?  Is your
    image "tainted" in the eyes of other professionals due to the open style of
    your virus research?

 A. Occasionally. I'm not  big on seeking  such things out.  I honestly am  not
    interested in having a  "high profile". Other professionals  . . . well,  I
    suppose some  still hate  my guts  for the  original Little  Black Book  of
    Computer Viruses. But for the most part, decent technical information about
    viruses is still so hard to get that you can't be too picky about where  it
    comes from. So they buy and read  my books (if they have any sense  at all)
    and that's what counts.


 Q. Have you ever held back technology in your books due to personal ethics, or
    legal issues? How  do you go  about balancing your  freedom of speech  with
    responsible writing?

 A. Oh, absolutely.  Nowadays, when  one simple  virus  could  cause a  hundred
    million infections in  24 hours, I  don't feel comfortable  with publishing
    code that somebody who thought I was writing "Computer Viruses for Compleat
    Idiots" could  just type  in and  cause that  kind of  problem. That  would
    definitely be irresponsible.

    My goal is to give people a technical education in my books. That  requires
    down and dirty  details, code, etc.  It is ridiculous  to say that  you can
    really learn about viruses from some  book that tells you "Now insert  your
    antivirus CD in the CD-ROM drive . . . " On the other hand, you don't  need
    to sit down  with a few  blocks of Plutonium  and make a  mess in order  to
    learn about criticality.  It's useful to  have some hands  on experience if
    you are  really going  to be  able to  make an  atomic bomb instead of just
    talking about it, but its generally  wasteful to actually make one and  set
    it off just to learn how.

    The only time a virus of mine every really made a show in the wild was  the
    Stealth-2 Boot Sector Virus. The  reason that happened is because  the anti
    -virus community  was going  around saying  that the  viruses in The Little
    Black  Book  were lame  because  I wasn't  a  good virus  programmer.  They
    basically dared me and said I couldn't do it. So I took Stealth-1 and  made
    it more aggressive in  the 2nd printing of  The Litlle Black Book.  It made
    the top 10 list for a while,  but it was benign. It didn't cause  any harm,
    except to take a little disk space and set off scanners.


 Q. As part of your work it is necessary to write and collect some viruses  for
    experimentation.  But do  you consider this  as a purely  professional side
    effect, or is it more of a hobby?

 A. Oh, it  is purely  professional, but  fun too.  A scientist  in the  jungle
    studying insects does it for professional reasons, but finds some enjoyment
    in it too. I pity the man who doesn't find some fun in his work!


 Q. With your new book, "The Little Black Book of Email Viruses" what styles of
    virus technology do you discuss?  What reader demographic do you write for?

 A. I go into detail about viruses that are propagated by email. I leave  aside
    internet-based worms  like Code  Red. The  book is  intended for anyone who
    isn't afraid of a little coding.  If you have experience with Visual  Basic
    or any of its variants (VBA, VBScript,  etc.) then 90% of the book will  be
    easy to understand, but even if not, the book will teach you. I do get into
    some machine level stuff when discussing exploits against Outlook Express.


 Q. Would the average technically literate reader of "The Little Black Book  of
    Email Viruses" be  able to progress  to writing their  own viruses, without
    the use of additional books and materials?

 A. Absolutely yes. No problem.


 Q. With virus technology (and technology in general) moving on so quickly, how
    relevant do you feel your previous virus-based books are today?

 A. Well, you have to understand that the ideas are basically the same, whether
    expressed in VBA in the context  of the internet or expressed in  assembler
    on an individual  PC. Older viruses  now offer the  researcher an important
    way to become proficient in the basic ideas and technology without posing a
    major  threat.  I  mean,  if  a  DOS  virus  you  are  experimenting   with
    accidentally gets away, it will probably not get very far nowadays. In that
    sense, these  books are  still useful.  Also, Computer  Viruses, Artificial
    Life and Evolution  is completely relevant  today yet, although  written in
    1993. Its warnings are perhaps more pertinent than ever. By the way, as  of
    next week, you'll be able to pick  up some of my earlier works FOR  FREE at
    www.ameaglepubs.com in electronic editions.


 Q. In round numbers, how many total copies of your virus books have been sold?

 A. I don't really know off the top of my head - tens of thousands.


 Q. What do you think  the chances are of  seeing evolving computer viruses  in
    our life time?

 A. Much more likely,  now that government  entities have gotten  interested in
    viruses. They have the resources to push the technology faster and  further
    than a bunch of hackers who do it out of the love of learning, or spite, or
    whatever.


 Q. With the threat of another war  in the Gulf, do you think viruses  could be
    used to positive ends by the military in any way?  How?

 A. Well the  military is  so computerized,  it's absurd  to think that viruses
    could not or  would not be  used to disrupt  those computers and  gain some
    advantage. The more computerized side (the US) has the most to lose in that
    regard, though. Recent  internet worms have  all the earmarks  of a careful
    probing of the internet to determine its weaknesses by someone who could be
    developing a capability for future use.


 Q. Is it too far fetched to believe that someone will one day harbour  viruses
    under their right to bear arms in the American Constitution?

 A. Personally I'd go for the  first amendment (free speech/press). The  second
    amendment is so riddled with (bullet) holes already.


 Q. With the rapid discovery and implementation cycle of virus technology, what
    do you fear most as a "worst case scenario" arising from its misuse?

 A. A virus is released on the internet by persons unknown effectively shutting
    the internet, and especially internet commerce down for a week or two.  The
    government  then  responds to  this  crisis by  implementing  all kinds  of
    controls on the  internet to insure  its safety and  monitor everything and
    everyone.  Gone,  then,  is  the freedom  of  information  exchange  on the
    internet, replaced with licensing and lots of regulations. Gone also is any
    kind of  freedom or  privacy for  any computer  that ever  connects to  the
    internet.


 Q. Conversely,  what benefits from advances in virus technology and philosophy
    do you look forward to most?

 A. Well, as I discussed in  my book, a good email  virus might be able to  get
    information out that  governments want to  keep shut up.  Such things could
    possibly influence  the world  in positive  ways. Imagine  a world in which
    everyone is wired up: Government A starts telling lies to incite its people
    to go to war with Government B.  Government B can present a good case  that
    everything Government A is saying is a lie, but Government A's media  isn't
    about to  present their  case. Government  B could  present its  case in  a
    virus, and  put it  into the  hands of  a majority  of people  living under
    Government A, thereby undermining support for the war. Thus, a virus  could
    be used to get  the truth out despite  powerful interests who want  to make
    sure it doesn't get out. That  could stop wars, genocides and all  kinds of
    atrocities, and hold evil men accountable for their acts.


 Q. Where do you  see your personal and  professional lives progressing in  the
    immediate future?   What future  projects  of  yours are  there for   us to
    look forward to?

 A. I may do a book on internet worms soon. I also want to write some books  on
    assembly  language  programming. That  seems  to be  becoming  a dark  art.
    Personally, we'll  stay here  in Central  America and  watch the corn grow.
    Check up on my publisher's website to keep posted: www.ameaglepubs.com.

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 -=( Natural Selection Issue #1 --------------- (c) 2002 Feathered Serpents )=-
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